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BGonline.org Forums
Day 1 -- Stick created thread
Posted By: Stick In Response To: How many people can I piss off today? (Stick)
Date: Thursday, 22 March 2007, at 8:40 a.m.
Let me start by trying to clarify a couple of points before proceeding into the minetrap:
- When I'm generalizing I'm doing just that, so don't jump down my throat or misinterpret something that isn't implicitly stated
- I don't want to argue semantics either. When I speak of religion I'm talking about the belief in the supernatural being that created _____. _____ is meant to be us, or the universe, w/e.
- Remember who is writing this post ... I'm sure all of you are used to me by now & don't get offended by all the shit I say ... as a special one time deal I'm going to try to tone it down to discuss this openly, but no promises, I am who I am (Popeye the Sailor Man!). I don't mean to offend anyone [as of yet, you'll know] I'd like an open discussion is all. .
- I get most of my jokes from things like Seinfeld, South Park, movies, etc... here I'll probably end up stealing some comedians' material. I'm only borrowing, so if you've seen the bit don't think I'm trying to pass it off as my own. I might even link you to some of the good shit later on.
- I keep adding to this list as I'm posting. I was not raised in a religious family, I did however go to church sometimes after I was X years old, where X probably equates to around 10 ish? I have read the Bible and many other books on religion but there are mannnnnnnnnnny things I'm ignorant on concerning the specifics of each separate religion. Excuse my ignorance, feel free to correct anything I may wrongly interpret.
I will first try to respond to all posting so far, then go off on my tangent of god knows what. [if you didn't catch that... you should stop reading my post now]
pekfrench: I agree partly with what you're saying. I find nothing wrong with trying to 'live a better quality of life'. I also think admiring people for how they conduct themselves, whether it be your parents, sports heros, or dead people who you can never have any contact with but read about them and interpret it how you like, is fine. I would like to see this more as a philosophy of living rather than religion. I see no reason one should have to believe in a higher being to live a 'good life'. I certainly don't and I've taken none of my moral standards directly from anything written in religious documents. I've drawn my own morals based on what I call common sense but I use that term loosely as everyone knows, common sense is not all that common.
You also mentioned "faith", which is an odd word. It's not much of a leap of faith per se for me to have faith in one of my friends I've known for 20 years. It is a Jackie Joyner Kersey in her prime on every drug know to this third rock from the sun leap of faith to believe in something there is absolutely no evidence for. I am a bit backed up on the reading front right now, but next time I made it out of my stock pile of already purchased books & magazines I'll take a look at your suggestion.
mamabear: Whether atheists get all worked up in religious discussions or not I couldn't care less. They probably due, I don't come across many in my daily wanderings from my house to the tennis courts and the only time religion does get brought up is when I bring it up, which is something I'll get back to later. I can sympathize with atheists that get all worked up. Maybe there is a finite amount of knowledge on the subject, and we will unravel more mysteries of the universe with time, but to imply that because our knowledge is limited that there's an invisible man in space that created everything is ... errr... I said I was going to be nice right? You can't disprove the existence of god, that I can live with. Can you live with the abundance of information that points towards the non existence of god? Just because you can't prove something doesn't exist/is false doesn't mean you can't build a very strong case against it.
I don't think for one minute everything that we can perceive in any way encapsulates all that there is to be understood in this universe (or any other). Again, making the jump from not being able to understand something to saying there's a magical being who put everything in motion is ...
Barry: I am pushing the point this is a touchy subject and I wonder why that is. This is a belief. If you suggest a movie to me I might ask you why you liked it, if I'm going to buy a car and you tell me that Honda makes a hell of a vehicule I would inquire further as to why you think that, if you say play A is better than play B in backgammon and I didn't understand it I'd ask you to explain it to me, I could keep rambling (probably with stronger examples) but the point is in every other aspect of life if you believe something you're expected to put your ass behind it & prove it. We don't accept mathematics or science or astronomy from beliefs, we want as many hard core facts & proofs as we can before we make an educated belief about the subject at hand and this is discussed in an open forum, why is religion so taboo? It shouldn't be, I'd like to knock down some barriers...though I'm too lazy to get the caboose moving, I can at least post on my own forums =)
Stanley Jesus was able to gather supporters by his many miracles. He understood that such manifestations were required to bring faith. May I suggest that you read several books of the many miracles of history and of recent years.
I don't really know how to approach this but if I read anything about history it would point me in a very bad direction as far as religion is concerned. Jesus may have been a great man, I will not deny that, but a man I will proclame. Everywhere we look around ourselves religion is causing Havok and to use the easiest example I would venture to Iraq of course. The Sunnis & the Shiites are two different sects of the same religion and can't get along. (I do maintain it's a religious war between them and not merely political. If anyone needs proof ask, I'd be happy to post it, but it's again, long and drawn out and out of the scope of this post) If you travel through history religion has killed more people than I care to try to put a number to or even make an obnoxious example (and that's a lot! ~~ was that an eg. in itself? lol)
axelM: Are you saying that without god in your life you wouldn't be happy? Why not? What would be different for you?
lucky: No doubt there are dice gods! Bastards hate me too...
DC-Ohio: Again I'm left with agreeing & disagreeing. I see no reason to have religion in your life to lead a better life. I don't kill my neighbor, I don't steal, and I even have no other gods before him (since I have none!) I was able to come to all of this on my own, without the help of religion. One can take some good things from religion, but take them and call it a way of living, don't take it and think you have to swallow all the other crap that comes with it. What kind of con artist offers pussy for following his beliefs?! (72 virgins????) Guy lived in a whale??? Woman came from a rib!? Rofl... the Indians are a lost tribe of Israel? Come on... [obviously all from diff. religions]
Nobody can argue we can't explain where everything came from ... but the leap of "I can't explain where there the smallest particles known to man came from" and jumping to god is beyond silly in my eyes. Why not a giant pink fairy with enormous knockers? What the hell...as long as we're fishing for something that doesn't exist, might as well go the full 9 yards. I can prove just as much about a giant pink fairy w/a perfect set creating everything known & unknown as anyone can about god. I know you agree it's a copout ... but I don't see your hesitation for admitting in all likelyhood, from the evidence put forth, there is no god.
Ok...that covers everyone's post. Now on to my own ramblings which may be disorganized but I'll do my best. Many examples will be known already, but I'd like to hear some open discussions on them.
Why do you believe one fairy tale over another?. You were told there was a Santa Clause who climbed down your chimney & left you presents on Christmas day, you were told there was an Easter bunny who hid eggs in your yard with candies and money in it, you were told a fairy comes and takes teeth you've lost from under your pillow and leaves you money, you were told some invisible guy lives in the sky and created everything you see and know. You grew up, your parents told you 1 wasn't true, 2 wasn't true, 3 wasn't true, did nobody chisel the omnipotent being out of your head? Is that all it is? You're all grownups now, you should be able to reevaluate your stance on such things. You should demand a reason to believe in something that you have no tangible evidence for, not ask for someone else to disprove it, it's not typically how things work. I've even heard it referred to as a "neurological disorder". This may sound harsh, but if someone is engraining these beliefs in your head from the time you're too young to know any better, is it really that far off?
Do you believe if you were raised in another country you wouldn't believe what they believe? For all you who believe in Jesus as the son of god do you honestly believe that if you had somehow, by some stretch of the imagination, grown up in Israel you'd still have the same beliefs? Doesn't that set off a signal that something may not be all that sound in the underlying theory? I do believe that if I was raised in any other country or setting I would still be who I am today, an atheist. I didn't have religion forced upon me as early as most did, but when it was I quickly rejected it thinking to myself something along the lines of "what in the hell is everyone mumbling the same shit for and look, they're passing around a plate of free money!!! SCORE!" The fairy tale of the different land would be the fairy tale you believe in now ...
The scariest part about religion to me is that it isn't questionable and it justifies anything said person wants. It stops people from thinking rationally, it is used as a powerful language to express whatever you see fit, from peace & tolerance to fanaticism & killing. Flying planes into a building is a faith based initiative. Holding race mixing as punishable by death is a faith based. (Brigham Young) Preaching that black people had only one way to get into heaven was part of their belief ... Keeping gays out of the military to touch closer to home? So absurd. Don't use that condom!! There are other countries where the death rates are in upwards of 40% because of the HIV virus and the only thing these people are hearing in regards to sexual education is preached by the church. What are they preaching...? Condoms = no no. Don't you think you'd look at the bigger picture that death of 4 out of every 10 people is worse than a bit of promiscuity?
Some people fairly wonder why I care about religion at all if I'm an atheist? If you can't see that it affects my daily life then get some Windex and clean off those spectacles grandma. There are things ranging from I couldn't be in the Boy Scouts as a child all the way up to never being able to get elected to a public office (without hiding my beliefs of course, not in this country at least). In seven states I wouldn't legally be allowed to hold an office or testify in court because of my atheism!? Then there's the set of laws that burn the deepest, known as BLUE LAWS. These are laws that restrict what ppl can do and we set into place because of religious beliefs. There are many of these but I'm going to be honest, I couldn't give a shit less about most of them. That's not to say there aren't people who do care, but one does grate on my last nerve. I can't buy liquor on a Sunday ... someone tell me seriously what fuckin' sense this makes.
I care because not only would I not be elected for any position where there was a majority vote, but also because the fucktards that are elected say intelligent things like:
Bush Sr.:
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God
I hate to break it to you Bushy boy, this nation was not created as "one nation under god". *Under God* was added to the Pledge of Allegiance much later by the Knights of Columbus, not our founding fathers. *In God we Trust* was added to coins in 1864, to the bill in 1957.Religion also attempts to control what is taught in schools. 62% of Americans want creationism taught in school, 44% want it taught exclusively. That's an eye poppin' number if I've ever seen one. I'm an atheist and if I ever were to have children once my child was of a proper age to make his decisions if he wanted to go to church I'd be there every day to take him to church, however if he didn't want to go I certainly wouldn't force him week after week after week. I'd never dream of not teaching about religion in school, but religions would apparently dream of not teaching crazy things such as evolution.
This is the worst factoid of late said 22% of people are certain Jesus will come down out of the clouds sometime in the next 50 years. Another 22% thinks he'll probably come back in the next 50 years. Let me do the math... 22% + 22% =.... carry the 1 .... ah, I see what it equals, it equals are you fuckin' kidding me? I'll let that go.. it's only a factoid, but truly thinking Jesus will descend upon us like Superman is unreal to me.
Religion in short takes away certain freedoms, tries to (and is constantly) rewriting history, affects the education of others and poses a threat to the safety & security of everyone. That, in short, is why I care about religion as an atheist.
I am far from finished but worn out from trying to organize my thoughts into one post when they're so scattered. I'll bring up other posts (and other topics like stem cell research being decided upon not by rational thought & reflection but religious furver or parents calling their kids "Christian children" as if the child has a choice yet or even if a parent has absolute rights to their child, should they be able to remove them from public school and home school them? [read brainwash in some cases]
Stick
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